The only thing I'd add is, hey everybody, please do read older texts whenever you can!
U.S. history as an example, I've my late 1800s The Queen Of The Republics or Standard History of the United States readily available on my shelves and often refer to it when reading today's take on something that happened in the 17 or 18 hundreds. I usually find that compared to today, most often those that were there or who's granddads and uncles were there had an entirely different take than modern authors.
I got this far with my French and Portuguese. I imagine I could get further with Latin, and the right reference materials. I got a sense of the rest of it, but I don’t know what “talans” means, or “jauzimen.” I would love to know more about the poem!
As someone who has worked as a translator, albeit from modern languages, I can only agree. One tries to convey not only the significations, but also the sense, and the connotations, and the allusions and etymologies, and the level of articulation, and a hundred other things. But this can never be done perfectly, because one language just isn't the same as another.
To offer my own example, there is a quote from a speech by Solzhenitsyn, in which he reflects on the truth of his uneducated elders' explanation for the disaster of Russia's 20th century. This is given in English as, "Men had forgotten God; that is why all this has happened," and is often referenced in traditionalist spheres. But in his original citation, Solzhenitsyn has it as "Люди забыли Бога, оттого и всё." The bare signification is more or less the same, but the simplicity and the crispness of the analogy, the way the end *rhymes* with so many other statements that one might commonly make, the finality and conclusiveness of the inference, are just missing from the English version. But I would struggle to do better; English just doesn't have the grammar that permits the structure of the second part.
The other thing that I would add is that, as every translator knows, context is crucial. Not just the context of the text or utterance as a whole, or the discourse of which it is a part, but the events of the day, and the historical and cultural setting. If called upon, for example, to translate audio recordings of private conversations between two people who know each other, one quickly finds that even of the lives and surroundings of people in the present day, inhabiting circumstances and performing tasks within one's own experience, are nonetheless frequently impenetrable, when all that one has is the "text" of the conversation. Very often, even when you can tell exactly what they're saying, you really don't know what they *mean*. The further removed their lives and contexts are from our own, the harder such a thing is.
In closing, I would add that most of us lack any real ability to appreciate the pervasive references and metaphors drawn from agriculture and animal husbandry that one finds in most older texts. You don't really appreciate just how *right* a word like "cocky" is until you've lived with what we squeamishly call "roosters" walking around your place. And "separating the wheat from the tares" is nothing but a fossilized phrase until you've seen a stand of darnell growing in your pasture.
I used to have a translation of Chaucer done in (I think) 1950s England where they'd made Alain and John speak like Geordies from Newcastle (one of them referred to his friend as "my me-at", i.e. "my mate"). The mining and industrial town of Newcastle is hardly a place of hayseeds, but it's a Funny Northern Accent, so close enough.
Then there's the convention that Spartans in Aristophanes get translated as speaking with a Scottish accent, since supposedly Doric Greek : Attic Greek :: Scots : Standard English
I have not yet had the time to look at your work on the Septuagint, but I have been writing on the Greek of Jesus's words on a daily basis for over twenty years (currently working on the fourth or fifth revision of my articles) and wanted to add a couple of things about Biblical translation, especially the Greek to the NT. My background is as a translator of ancient languages (worked in Chinese before moving to Greek).
As you probably know, the Biblical resources like Strong's cannot be trusted. A warning to others: they are largely tautological, defining the Greek the way it is translated in the Bible rather than the way the words would have been understood in Jesus's time. You offer an example: "And do not put us to the test, but save us from the evil one." The term translated as "evil" had much less morally loaded than today. The sense was more of 'worthless" and "second-rate." I am sure you are using LSJ or similar in your work.
As you may or may not know Jesus often quotes the Septuagint word for word, but there are stark differences in English translation. My grasp of ancient Hebrew (or whatever it is politically correct to call it today) is limited, but it works as a great way to triangulate the meaning of certain words at the time. Of course, the greatest help is other works written about the same time (with a couple of centuries). Josephus would be more help is he wasn't so damned formal in his Greek, proudl avoiding the koine aspects.
A fellow LXX enjoyer! I've been learning Ancient Greek for the past 6 months and I have been working through Lanier's Reader's Edition of Genesis. It reads quite differently in places from what I recall of the English.
As somebody who is self taught, how exactly would a person gain that "spidey sense" for discerning things like textual date from texts, especially in Ancient Greek and Latin. I'm entirely self taught in both this and Latin, and with the latter I've only just reached the ability to read some later texts without a dictionary.
When I read this love-imbibed text from Anglos I always feel embarassed by my luck, since I was told this and started reading Greek and Latin at 14, in a normal school curriculum in Italy. Ofc Globohomo absolutely HATES italian Lycaeum, but we are still raging against the Homos.
The first one looks to be a mixture of Latin and Catalan or Spanish, but it doesn't translate very well.
The second looks to be French, but my translation doesn't work well.
You are right. Life's mysteries unravel if you can read other languages or even older dead languages.
I learned Castilian Spanish and, from there, started learning Latin, which also led to French. I also know a bit of German and am slowly learning Scots Gaelic.
Old English, from Beowulf to Chaucer to Middle English of Shakespeare, is also interesting.
Mr. Librarian, good day.
My only comment is a request that you keep sharing your Septuagint journey here.
The only thing I'd add is, hey everybody, please do read older texts whenever you can!
U.S. history as an example, I've my late 1800s The Queen Of The Republics or Standard History of the United States readily available on my shelves and often refer to it when reading today's take on something that happened in the 17 or 18 hundreds. I usually find that compared to today, most often those that were there or who's granddads and uncles were there had an entirely different take than modern authors.
I got this far with my French and Portuguese. I imagine I could get further with Latin, and the right reference materials. I got a sense of the rest of it, but I don’t know what “talans” means, or “jauzimen.” I would love to know more about the poem!
Time comes and goes, and turns
By days, by months, and by years
And I, alas, don’t know what to say
[…]
One who feels no love is as good as dead…
As someone who has worked as a translator, albeit from modern languages, I can only agree. One tries to convey not only the significations, but also the sense, and the connotations, and the allusions and etymologies, and the level of articulation, and a hundred other things. But this can never be done perfectly, because one language just isn't the same as another.
To offer my own example, there is a quote from a speech by Solzhenitsyn, in which he reflects on the truth of his uneducated elders' explanation for the disaster of Russia's 20th century. This is given in English as, "Men had forgotten God; that is why all this has happened," and is often referenced in traditionalist spheres. But in his original citation, Solzhenitsyn has it as "Люди забыли Бога, оттого и всё." The bare signification is more or less the same, but the simplicity and the crispness of the analogy, the way the end *rhymes* with so many other statements that one might commonly make, the finality and conclusiveness of the inference, are just missing from the English version. But I would struggle to do better; English just doesn't have the grammar that permits the structure of the second part.
The other thing that I would add is that, as every translator knows, context is crucial. Not just the context of the text or utterance as a whole, or the discourse of which it is a part, but the events of the day, and the historical and cultural setting. If called upon, for example, to translate audio recordings of private conversations between two people who know each other, one quickly finds that even of the lives and surroundings of people in the present day, inhabiting circumstances and performing tasks within one's own experience, are nonetheless frequently impenetrable, when all that one has is the "text" of the conversation. Very often, even when you can tell exactly what they're saying, you really don't know what they *mean*. The further removed their lives and contexts are from our own, the harder such a thing is.
In closing, I would add that most of us lack any real ability to appreciate the pervasive references and metaphors drawn from agriculture and animal husbandry that one finds in most older texts. You don't really appreciate just how *right* a word like "cocky" is until you've lived with what we squeamishly call "roosters" walking around your place. And "separating the wheat from the tares" is nothing but a fossilized phrase until you've seen a stand of darnell growing in your pasture.
A lovely post! I'm going to go read the chapter on the Homeric textual history that you linked to now. Thank you.
There is a hair-raising story about how the only extant copy of Beowulf barely survived a fire:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowell_Codex
Very interesting. My daughter went to St Johns in Annapolis and they would read original works and she stressed the importance of translators
LXX. Can't wait.
This sounds great! Look forward to reading you're upcoming articles!
I used to have a translation of Chaucer done in (I think) 1950s England where they'd made Alain and John speak like Geordies from Newcastle (one of them referred to his friend as "my me-at", i.e. "my mate"). The mining and industrial town of Newcastle is hardly a place of hayseeds, but it's a Funny Northern Accent, so close enough.
Then there's the convention that Spartans in Aristophanes get translated as speaking with a Scottish accent, since supposedly Doric Greek : Attic Greek :: Scots : Standard English
I have not yet had the time to look at your work on the Septuagint, but I have been writing on the Greek of Jesus's words on a daily basis for over twenty years (currently working on the fourth or fifth revision of my articles) and wanted to add a couple of things about Biblical translation, especially the Greek to the NT. My background is as a translator of ancient languages (worked in Chinese before moving to Greek).
As you probably know, the Biblical resources like Strong's cannot be trusted. A warning to others: they are largely tautological, defining the Greek the way it is translated in the Bible rather than the way the words would have been understood in Jesus's time. You offer an example: "And do not put us to the test, but save us from the evil one." The term translated as "evil" had much less morally loaded than today. The sense was more of 'worthless" and "second-rate." I am sure you are using LSJ or similar in your work.
As you may or may not know Jesus often quotes the Septuagint word for word, but there are stark differences in English translation. My grasp of ancient Hebrew (or whatever it is politically correct to call it today) is limited, but it works as a great way to triangulate the meaning of certain words at the time. Of course, the greatest help is other works written about the same time (with a couple of centuries). Josephus would be more help is he wasn't so damned formal in his Greek, proudl avoiding the koine aspects.
A fellow LXX enjoyer! I've been learning Ancient Greek for the past 6 months and I have been working through Lanier's Reader's Edition of Genesis. It reads quite differently in places from what I recall of the English.
As somebody who is self taught, how exactly would a person gain that "spidey sense" for discerning things like textual date from texts, especially in Ancient Greek and Latin. I'm entirely self taught in both this and Latin, and with the latter I've only just reached the ability to read some later texts without a dictionary.
When I read this love-imbibed text from Anglos I always feel embarassed by my luck, since I was told this and started reading Greek and Latin at 14, in a normal school curriculum in Italy. Ofc Globohomo absolutely HATES italian Lycaeum, but we are still raging against the Homos.
Very interesting and with very helpful examples.
The first one looks to be a mixture of Latin and Catalan or Spanish, but it doesn't translate very well.
The second looks to be French, but my translation doesn't work well.
You are right. Life's mysteries unravel if you can read other languages or even older dead languages.
I learned Castilian Spanish and, from there, started learning Latin, which also led to French. I also know a bit of German and am slowly learning Scots Gaelic.
Old English, from Beowulf to Chaucer to Middle English of Shakespeare, is also interesting.